The Time-Crunched Cyclist Podcast by CTS

Which "Zone 2"? Comparing 7-Zone and 3-Zone Training Systems

• CTS • Season 5 • Episode 241

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OVERVIEW
So many athletes are focused on training in Zone 2, but they don't realize "Zone 2" means different things depending on which training system you use. There is a 3-Zone system, a 5-Zone system, a 7-Zone system, and even more! Two of the most popular are 3-Zones, championed by researcher Dr. Stephen Seiler, and a 7-Zone system used by CTS and many other coaching groups. In Episode 241 of "The Time-Crunched Cyclist Podcast", Coach Adam Pulford answers a listener question about how an athlete can compare or use more than one training zone methodology, and what "Zone 2" means in a 3-Zone system compared to a 7-Zone system.

TOPICS COVERED

  • Why training zones were created
  • 7-Zone system compared to a 3-Zone system
  • Using aerobic decoupling to evaluate aerobic conditioning
  • Practical advice for athletes trying to use training zones

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HOST
Adam Pulford has been a CTS Coach for nearly two decades and holds a B.S. in Exercise Physiology. He's participated in and coached hundreds of athletes for endurance events all around the world.

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Speaker 1:

From the team at CTS. This is the Time Crunch Cyclist podcast, our show dedicated to answering your training questions and providing actionable advice to help you improve your performance even if you're strapped for time. I'm your host, coach Adam Pulford, and I'm one of the over 50 professional coaches who make up the team at CTS. In each episode, I draw on our team's collective knowledge, other coaches and experts in the field to provide you with the practical ways to get the most out of your training and ultimately become the best cyclist that you can be. Now on to our show. Now onto our show. How do you take lab test results and apply them to real-world training and how do you compare a three-zone system to a seven-zone system? We'll discuss this and more on today's episode.

Speaker 1:

I'm your host, coach Adam Pulford, and today's questions come from Andy, one of our regular listeners here on the Time Crunch Cyclist podcast. Each of his questions deals with comparing power and heart rate in a seven zone system like the ones we use at CTS or Training Peaks, which have been developed by Dr Andy Coggin, and we're going to compare that to a three zone system, which you would see in a polarized training system popularized by Dr Steven Seiler that three-zone system and information around it is likely something you'll receive after getting a lactate threshold test done in a laboratory setting. The seven-zone system is what you'd get when you do a cycling field test and you estimate your FTP, then calculate training zones. While these two systems are similar, they are not the same. So let's read Andy's original question and dive into some answers and discussion points around each. Here's the original question.

Speaker 1:

I don't understand how five zones for heart rate and seven zones for power are supposed to match up. Based on my metabolic test I have found that my fat max in LT1 was much lower from a heart rate point of view than my FTP and power at zone two. Here's an example Metabolic fat max indicate a heart rate no higher than 125 beats per minute, which is about 150 to 175 watts on any given day. I guess I'm a sugar burner to the max. According to a 20 minute field test and FTP of 276 watts, top of zone two would likely be around 205 or 210, depending on which way I round in a seven zone model, the far bottom of zone two and the end of zone one is where it's suggested I keep my zone two work If I get up to more to the top end of zone two I get far into zone three. Heart rate Aerobically I'm doing okay when riding in a steady state either top or bottom of zone two. I don't experience anything unacceptable for heart rate drift.

Speaker 1:

But please let me know your thoughts, andy. So there's a lot there, but let's see if we can cover all of it in a short time. Let's first start with comparing the different systems with different zones. So when comparing these two zones, I think it's important to begin with, why do we have zones to begin with? Why were they created? So, whether it is Coggin, seiler or some laboratory test, the main important thing to realize is training zones were created so that we could be more descriptive rather than prescriptive, so that we could describe what was going on, the sensations associated with the data in training, versus wanting a coach just to prescribe an interval workout, which is kind of what we do today. But let's not lose sight of that descriptive process in training because that helps us to organize and communicate with same language what we're trying to do in a training program. For more on this, check out my podcast with Coach Tim Cusick, which is all the way back at episode number eight, where we cover all the details on this and more, including Coggin's original philosophy behind that, behind that.

Speaker 1:

So, in these two different models though, where we're talking about that, like I said, that typical training peaks or CTS seven zone model, compared to the three zone model of like an LT1 and LT2, when we're trying to compare and make some sense out of these two models with kind of two different types of zones. First of all, if you're a visual learner like myself, I think it's really important to have a visual. So I'm going to share a screen and what we're going to look at is we're going to look at that seven zone model, which is on the left-hand side, compared to the three zone model which is over here on the right-hand side, and then I also have some rate of perceived effort ranking systems on here as well. Now, for those who are just listening on the podcast and not on YouTube for the visual, I will do my best to describe what is going on, but in order to do that, I think it's very important to reiterate that these are similar but they are not the same. The hinge points are indeed threshold, some sort of threshold, ftp or lactate threshold or OBLA, however you want to kind of describe that threshold phenomenon. But those are the hinge points. Now the final thread to weave through all of this is RPE, the rate of perceived effort, scale of one to 10, one being super easy, 10 being a maximum effort. That is the common language. I believe that links the two systems together.

Speaker 1:

Now a couple of things here. First, on a seven zone system, because that level six and level seven are so high power in individual nature, typically we're going to be comparing probably up to level five or level six in that seven zone system when we're comparing it over here to the three zone system. Okay, so now I have all these layered up, starting with a perceived effort of one, going all the way up to level 10. What we're going to do is we're going to go through recovery on level one, endurance on level two or zone two, tempo on level three, lactate threshold level four, vo2 max on level five and anaerobic capacity on level six. Now what's confusing for most people is that the three zone system really encapsulates all of zone one, all of zone two and some of zone three. So it's staying aerobic in nature until we get up to that hinge point of threshold which is zone four in a seven zone system, but that's all the way, kind of to the upper end of the zone two for the three zone model.

Speaker 1:

I think, visually, folks, you need to hop on, you need to hop on YouTube to get a full descriptor of what's going on here, because the visual will help a lot. As I'm even describing this to you, I understand how complicated it can be and as a coach and physiologist, it's taken years for us, I would say, to evolve to the point of being able to describe this very well, at least for my own pea brain sake. So the visual really helps in that way. But to you, andy, in particular this one, and don't care about all the other numbers that you see here, because it's really the levels that are going on the left-hand side for the seven zone model, the levels that are going on for the three zone model and the rate of perceived effort right here down the middle. Now I think that this is the best way to compare apples to apples, or these two similar but not same training zones, and start to make sense of them all. Remember the hinge point is the threshold which was just coming here right around zone four. Now for a lot more detail on this.

Speaker 1:

I did a podcast with coach Renee Eastman and that was number 170, entitled leveraging labaging, lab and Field Testing to Create a Bigger Aerobic Engine. So we talk a lot about comparing these two models, how you can bridge the gap and apply it to your training, and really in this episode I'm going to take specifically I'm going to take some of Andy's data here as best I can and extrapolate it to these systems. So now, if you're on YouTube, what I'm doing is I'm going to pull up something very similar to what I was doing just before, and the difference here is I've got the two zones, uh, along with a bunch of other numbers right, all the different percentages of FTP or VO2 max as they correlate to the seven zone system on the left, the three zone system on the right and, in particular, now I've got Andy's FTP of what he said he tested at in there. Okay, we're not going to go through line item by line item and describe everything, but I'm going to do my best to bring some reality and some comparative sense to what Andy was asking about for his own individual training trainer road, because this is where I've always had found this resource before and I made a copy and I and I actually use a lot of this data for my athletes when they go in and get a lab test and I teach them and compare kind of apples to apples or, you know, power to power or zone to zone, as we're deploying in order to create in a training program for them. To orient you a little bit, this chart in particular takes that seven zone system, just goes up to five. So VO2 max I think that's the best way to describe and compare the three zone system because above that I get very individualized with my athletes in how we're going to do neuromuscular power training or functional reserve capacity.

Speaker 1:

I think in some sense it's very simple because when you're at that level you say go hard, max is max, go for it for the specific power duration. On the other hand, when you're tracking it or you're accurately trying to prescribe a max effort as opposed to just putting in 400% of FTP, which some people may be able to do, I mean that's super hard for a sprint, right? Some people are going to get crushed at 290. So for them to see that big of a number and not even come close to it, psychologically, that's kind of a hindrance there. So I think as a coach you want to be sensitive to that and at least get a ballpark when it comes to some of that high intensity training. However, it's very specific. The rate of perceived effort is high, the power is specific, so we're not going to talk about that. Simplify, simplify, simplify.

Speaker 1:

Let's go and compare the seven zone system to the three. Like I said, the hinge points are the threshold and for Andy, he was talking about an FTP of 276 Watts. Right there you see, it's a top end of level four or zone four in the seven zone model. With the three zone model it's up here at the top of level two. Now I want to remind Andy and everybody here that lab test results can and usually differ than a field test result. They're testing two different things. In the lab You're testing lactate threshold versus out in a field test you're testing functional threshold, power and you're estimating that Lactate threshold or LT2 in that lab result is usually going to correlate better with the low end of zone four in a seven zone model, more like a 60 minute power duration, whereas FTP would be at the higher end of the zone for power, something more like a 30 to 40 minute time trial. And here. You can see on the visual that in the seven zone model on the left-hand side that FTP that you pump in there at 276 watts for Andy that's at the middle to high end of it, but there's another notch above that at 290 watts. So that's what I'm talking about. The high end is more like the FTP. The estimated is that 276, roughly 95% or 92% or thereabouts and that's what we're going to use to make the training zones. Now I don't have Andy's lab test he didn't share that with me, nor do I really need to but I'm guessing lab test results were somewhere around 250 or 260 for the point of lactate threshold. And that's where we can see on the left-hand side in the seven zone model the low end of zone four is right around that 250 mark.

Speaker 1:

Now, because a lot of Andy's questioning was around that fat max or zone two training, I'll remind everybody recall in my podcast with Renee, which got pretty popular, it was the one about being a sugar burner or not. I mean, I'll say I'll remind everybody we're calling my podcast with Renee, which it got pretty popular. It was the one about being a sugar burner or not. It's episode number 169. And Andy, you made a reference to it.

Speaker 1:

Remember that you you don't know if you're a sugar burner or not unless you actually test it. So what you could do is, wherever you got the lab test done, is go back and see if they have that data to see if you're actually burning more carbohydrate at a low intensity, like below LT1 versus fat oxidation. So first of all, that would be the way to do it. If you have the data and you don't have access to it, I suggest scheduling a consult with coach Renee so she can help you decipher a lot of this information, and we do that more on that later. But just remember you actually need to test that. Don't just self-determine it for yourself based on a podcast that you heard about it. Okay, in that, in that episode we do advise that if you think you are just to be sure that you are, you can do a training block where you ride at that low zone two and metabolically train yourself so that you are burning more fat as a fuel source for a time period, but then you move on in your training. Okay, listen to that podcast a little bit more for all the details.

Speaker 1:

Now, in there we discuss that fat max is usually on the low end or the easier end of zone two, endurance work for most people, and if your goal is to burn fat as a fuel source or train your metabolism to do that, then you should spend more time training closer to that lower end of zone two, which is 55 to 65%, as everyone can see watching the YouTube right now. But you can see the top end of zone two is all the way up there around 70 or 75%. Now, when you're training low end or high end, you're still getting. You're still getting benefits of endurance training. But there may be you know there may be those subtle differences there, especially if you start to see some of that heart rate drift, as Andy said, which we normally talk about as aerobic decoupling.

Speaker 1:

But please hear me on this one Fat max is not the only thing to train in your life. At some point, people, we need to move beyond zone two and do some harder work. Okay, and one of the ways that we can get there is using a metric called aerobic decoupling. So let's talk about that for a minute. And you said that aerobically, I think I'm fine. But then you also talked about how, if you hang out at the upper end of zone two, the heart rate drifts into zone three, Okay. And then then you kind of went back on that a little bit saying you don't see a whole lot of cardiac drift. So it was a little confusing to me.

Speaker 1:

But I think in some sense, if you're hanging out at the upper end of zone two power and you are seeing your heart rate go up into zone three, I would look at aerobic decoupling in particular. We used to call this, and still do, heart rate drift and all that means is you keep the power of the same Does a heart rate drift up? From an artistic standpoint and coaching standpoint, I like that because there's so much nuance here. I'll get to that here in a minute. But aerobic decoupling, training peaks, uh, coggin Friel have all kind of helped better determine how that drift may occur and what to do if you see that drift occur, and we call that aerobic decoupling. If you want more details on this, I'll link to this in our show notes a great article from Training Peaks on how to use aerobic decoupling. But essentially this tool compares your efficiency factor, or EF, for the first half of an interval section or a section of your ride to the second half of it and if this comparison is less than 5%, you're not decoupling and you're good to go and therefore you could conclude that you are aerobically fit. However, if it's over 5%, and definitely over 10%, you could be aerobically not fit.

Speaker 1:

If you see aerobic decoupling occur, then you need to spend some more time specifically training the aerobic system in different ways. But there's a ton of nuance here. First of all, the efforts need to be 20 minutes or longer for an effort. They need to be steady and not surgy, and which intensity you use kind of depends a bit on the style of the rider and what you're actually wanting to test or train. But in some past episodes I do talk about how time crunched athletes aiming for the upper end of zone two so that's at 70 to 75% of FTP for one hour is a good measurement system to test that aerobic decoupling, to determine how aerobically fit you are. More on this in a minute.

Speaker 1:

So let's get into some practical advice on how to pull all this together. Now. This practical advice applies to everybody and I've got some specific stuff to Andy. First, you want to organize your training and decide what you're actually trying to do with your training. So, for example, is the workout that you're doing meant to burn fat or build aerobic capacity? Okay, if you're trying to just burn fat, sure, hang on the low end of that zone to 55 to 60, 65% of FTP and just ride easy. But if your workout is meant to improve tolerance at lactate threshold or high lactate levels or extend the time that you can hold FTP power, you have to decide what you're trying to do. My opinion, especially for a time crunched athlete, is very challenging to do both in the same workout. That's going to last 90 minutes. In fact I'm going to say it's not going to happen. So you just have to decide what the goal of your actual training is, then organize yourself, build the right workout and then get it done Now. Secondly and this applies specifically to Andy here, but also anyone listening take it or leave it, but it sounds like you just need to start adding more intensity to your training program without knowing more about you and your goals and the actual lab test information or the training history. What you described seems like you've done some base training, okay, and you want to improve your performance, which could be anything from just increasing FTP right To holding FTP for longer. Maybe you have some race goals, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

Here's my advice. Here's a three to four week training program. Tuesdays and Thursdays threshold work For the first week, three by 10. Threshold at zone four, which is 91 to 105% of FTP, with four to five minutes recovering between zone four, which is 91 to 105% of FTP, with four to five minutes recovering between. On the second and third week of that just talking about Tuesday and Thursday only right now you want to progress the Tuesday workout to three by 12 and then two by 20 respectively. Keep it to zone four and your recovery periods should only be five to six minutes at most. Be five to six minutes at most. Now keep Thursday at three by 10.

Speaker 1:

What I, what I my advice there is keep working the same power duration and see what the heart rate does over time compared to that first week. There'll be some really fun things to see there. In particular, what we want to do is keep the power the same and have that heart rate come down for each interval, or intensify the power and have the heart rate remain the same, or interval or intensify the power and have the heart rate remain the same or come down over time. Those are two adaptations that you should see when done properly. Okay, so that's just Tuesday and Thursday.

Speaker 1:

Wednesdays now keep that easy. One hour at the 55 to 65% of FTP or zone two. Mondays and Fridays are your rest day FTP or zone two. Mondays and Fridays are your rest day. Saturday here's this aerobic decoupling kind of tester workout that you're also doing to build aerobic capacity. What I would do is warm up for 10 to 15 minutes of easy endurance and then take five minutes where you progress up to 75% of FTP, which is the top end of your zone two training. What you want to do is 60 minutes at 70 to 75% of FTP, so very top end of zone two, and then you cool down for five to 10 minutes.

Speaker 1:

Okay, very simple workout. It's hard, it's challenging, you have to pace. If you've never done 60 minutes, uh, specifically for mentally, it's kind of a challenge, but that's a great workout. Do that every Saturday for three weeks in a row. See what you get. Sunday now, this is your endurance ride, your free ride. You're not constrained, no structure to it. Aim for an hour and a half at minimum, I would say for most time crunched athletes. That'd be a great combination. Saturday, sunday sort of back-to-back workouts and, if you're progressing the long ride or deepening that long ride, ride up to three hours and it's not going to necessarily hurt you if you take that Monday rest day and then you come back to some threshold work on Tuesday. So that's what I would do specifically for you, andy, and for most people who are weaving into their first round of threshold training.

Speaker 1:

Now, third, on this practical advice knowing what you want out of your training will help you understand how to use these zones whether it's seven zone, three zone, 17 zone if that exists, I don't know. But again, these zones were created to help describe the training a little bit better, to help us be organized about it, to help our brains organize what we're going to do and then map it out and then actually get it done. Zones to read more about this use this podcast. Use the podcast references to the other interviews that I've done to help just understand the system. Once you understand the system, then it will make a heck of a lot more sense of how these systems were designed in order to get the results that you want. Okay, and as opposed to say, just doing threshold work or just doing a polarized program, because that's what the pros are doing Learning how something works is a far better will give you a far better outcome rather than just doing something because it worked for somebody else.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's like, if there's anything that sinks in from this podcast, please let that one sink in, all right. So final words here to you specifically, andy. I hope all this helps. If not, like I said, I recommend you booking a consult with coach Renee Eastman. You can do that as well as with any of our coaches. Head over to trainrightcom and go to coaches and you can book a consult there to talk about whatever you want. Um, renee is awesome about taking lab results from any lab across the world, actually, and, uh, just helping individualize the advice and decipher some of that information a little bit more. So she's a wizard at taking that, uh, all the numbers and applying it individually to you. So just know that that's an option to you, andy.

Speaker 1:

If this podcast doesn't answer your question directly, now to all of the listeners right now, I hope that this comparison, which I still have up on the screen, take a screenshot of it or check out our show notes for a link to the actual spreadsheet itself. Again, I got it from Trainer Road. There's a lot of nuance in this whole worksheet, but if you're a detail-oriented person, you will absolutely love it. Model and, more specifically, has helped you learn how to identify when it's time to start intensifying your training, moving beyond just zone two or aerobic training as the primary focus in your training program. That's it.

Speaker 1:

That's our show for today. If you liked what you heard, please share it with a friend or your training partner, and if you have any questions of your own, ask me by heading over to train rightcom backslash podcast and click on ask a training question. Those get sent directly to me and my team at CTS and we'll do our best to answer it on a future episode. Thanks again for listening and we'll be back next week to share more actionable training advice to every single one of you. Thanks for joining us on the time crunch cyclist podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. If you want even more actionable training advice, head over to trainrightcom backslash newsletter and subscribe to our free weekly publication. Each week you'll get in-depth training content that goes beyond what we cover here on the podcast. That'll help you take your training to the next level. That's all for now. Until next time, train hard, train smart, train right.

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