The Time-Crunched Cyclist Podcast by CTS

Episode 206: Science of Peak Fat Oxidation and FatMax with Dr. Gabriele Gallo, PhD

• CTS • Season 4 • Episode 206

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IN THIS EPISODE

  • Peak Fat Oxidation and FatMax
  • Fax oxidation effect on fatigue resistance
  • Effects of sex and fitness on peak fat oxidation
  • Training with low and high carbohydrate availability
  • Optimizing fat oxidation for Time-Crunched Cyclists
  • Zone 2 training benefits beyond fat oxidation

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GUEST
Gabriele Gallo earned his PhD in sports science and also recognized that scientific literature - including his own research - is complicated for non-scientists to read and comprehend. As a result, he created the Knowledge Is Watt Substack and Instagram account. He has dedicated himself to translating scientific papers into more easily digestible content to be read, understood and easily applied by all athletes and coaches.

HOST
Adam Pulford has been a CTS Coach for nearly two decades and holds a B.S. in Exercise Physiology. He's participated in and coached hundreds of athletes for endurance events all around the world.

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Speaker 1:

From the team at CTS. This is the Time Crunch Cyclist podcast, our show dedicated to answering your training questions and providing actionable advice to help you improve your performance even if you're strapped for time. I'm your host, coach Adam Pulford, and I'm one of the over 50 professional coaches who make up the team at CTS. In each episode, I draw on our team's collective knowledge, other coaches and experts in the field to provide you with the practical ways to get the most out of your training and ultimately become the best cyclist that you can be. Now on to our show. Now on to our show.

Speaker 1:

Welcome back, or welcome to the Time Crunch Cyclist Podcast. I'm your host, coach Adam Pulford. Since my last podcast a few weeks ago, I've had some great follow-up questions from you all our listeners, around durability, fatigue resistance, training and how to continually improve these aspects of training. To help go deeper into the why and how of this, I wanted to bring in an expert researcher in this field. Dr Gabriele Gallo is the founder of Knowledge, is what, and produces some of the best content on these topics I've ever seen, making complicated research more simple. Dr Gallo, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2:

Hi Adam, thank you and too nice in the presentation. But thank you for inviting me and happy to be here today.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, I'm super, super excited on this end of things. Like I said, I've been subscribing to the Substack that you push out, and on Instagram your handle is at knowledge is what, and I think it really just resonates with what a lot of cyclists and endurance athletes are tuning into right now, from the pro peloton on down. So for our listeners, who may not know you as well as I or subscribe to your Substack underneath that name, could you tell us a little bit more of why you started the knowledge is what project? For our listeners, who may not know you as well as I or subscribe to your sub stack underneath that name, could you tell us a little?

Speaker 2:

bit more of why you started the knowledge is what project.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I think it was about two years ago or one year and a half and I was just in the middle of my PhD in sports science and I just finished to publish the first papers so research in scientific journals and after that I was very excited but after that nothing happened.

Speaker 2:

So you put a lot of work on it, on scientific papers, and then you publish them, but at the end a few people are reading this kind of scientific journals because a language maybe is too technical, because the format is not, let's say, user friendly for everyone who is not in in scientific journals. So I felt something like something was missing. I felt not satisfied. So the goal was just to just to have a bigger reach. So there is a lot of information in scientific papers in sports science and especially in cycling, that came out in the last, let's say, 10 years, 15 years, but nobody's reading it because, as I I said before, the language is too complicated and because informations are hidden inside these papers. So I just tried um easier way to make this kind of research and information accessible to everyone, and so I just started the the infographics project on instagram and twitter or x, or, and then it is just going on now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, I mean, I love it because we were talking off camera a little bit before this and what I was saying is you know, I've been coaching for almost 20 years and kind of, the ethos of a coach is to take what we know in research, or what we know works, you know, for the human physiology, and then apply it to the complicated uh spider web of the the human athlete right and try to bridge the gap from lab to field in the way of uh performance right, competing and having the highest performance.

Speaker 2:

And essentially you're doing just that with the latest research yeah, yeah, because also, as you said, sometimes there are, let's say, physiological studies and within these physiological studies there could be hidden information about sport performance. But if you read the title and if you read the paper, it's not straightforward to take this information out. It's not straightforward to take this information out. So I think this work on social media and then Substack could be great to extract this kind of information.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's it. And, let's face it, everybody's attention span seems to be growing a little bit shorter and shorter. And your content? You kind of write it in a way that you can do a quick read in three to five minutes. And on the time crunch cyclist podcast, we tried to do pretty efficient uh podcasts here of 20 to 30 minutes. So that's what we're going to try to do Uh, pick your brain and uh, try to learn as much as possible for our listeners. We're going to do a short and sweet and what's in store is a three-part little mini series here with Dr Gallo to discuss how to maximize performance using this kind of like latest evolving research in the field. So, dr Gallo, are you ready to go?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, let's go.

Speaker 1:

So first, I think it's important to start here, where we're going to talk about peak fat oxidation as well as fat max, and you know what that elicits to me. Maybe not everybody, but it's zone two training, and that's popular right now for many reasons, but it's also been used as a bread and butter in many coaches and athletes training programs for well, I'd argue, forever. So what's the secret of this lower intensity training, and can we talk about the PFO and FM that you discuss in one of your writings?

Speaker 2:

training in the last, let's say, two years, three years, uh, it has become very popular and uh, um, I think sometimes it is also overestimated, but uh, uh, one thing about zone two is that, uh, from a metabolic point of view, in this zone usually we have, uh, these two parameters that you mentioned before, so, um, peak fat oxidation and the fat max. So peak fat oxidation is just the maximum amount of fats that the body can use per minute, so let's say, 0.6 grams or 0.4 grams per minute, while fat max is the intensity at which peak fat oxidation occurs, which peak fat oxidation occurs. So, let's say, you can have 0.4 grams per minute as peak fat oxidation and I don't know 200 watts as fat max. So fat max, the intensity, and peak fat oxidation, is the amount of fats.

Speaker 1:

So, like for our listeners, you would find the peak fat oxidation by going into a laboratory setting, finding what that rate is, and then you would correlate it to an intensity that you could then go ride your bike out on the road to train yeah, yeah, exactly so, uh, let's say that the gold standard.

Speaker 2:

The only uh 100 accurate way to know your fat max, to train at the peak fat oxidation, is to visit a lab with a metabolic cart so you can perform a step test, so starting from a low power output and then increase every four or six minutes, and then, with a, with collection of gas expired from the metabolic cart, you can then know with calculations, uh, of course, with the help of a coach or exercise physiologist, you can know how many fats and carbs you are using for each intensity, and then you can just plot the graph and see the peak in the fat in fat oxidation and that is a fat max. So this is the way to know it, the gold standard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the gold standard for sure. So you know, I've had the question. Uh, opposed to me here on the podcast is which is better, 60% of FTP or 76% of FTP? And for listeners, when you're using a, like a, you know, six or seven zone model, we're talking about the low end of zone two or the upper end of zone two. So, dr gallo, based on what we're talking about here, what would you say is the answer?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, so it is not, uh, black or black or white the the answer. It's not easy to answer because, uh, the other thing is that I think there is a little bit of misconception about sports science, because sometimes people think that sports science have all the answers. But we all know in that in reality in sports science there is individual individualization. So, uh, to answer your your your right question, uh, you cannot know this a priori but you have to measure it to be 100% sure. So usually FETMAX is around that percentage of FTP. So we can say 70%, about 70% of FTP. So zone 2, let's say middle high, zone 2. But it depends, because some people, especially very, very strong cyclists, let's say professional or semi-professional cyclists, sometimes they have fat max even at the beginning of tempo zone. So zone three in a five or seven zones model. But let's say that for the 90, 95% of non-professional or non-semi-professional cyclists, fat max is usually around 65 or 70% of FTP.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and so I mean, I've done a couple podcasts about this, including with one of our coaches, Renee Eastman, where we had a three-part lab series talking about you know how to measure it, how to identify it, then how to go out in the field. But, Dr Gallo, can you remind us why should we care about this, Like, why is this so important and how does it relate to fatigue resistance training? How does it relate to durability, Like? Why are we talking about it in this little series?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

This is a very, very hot topic at the moment because I think that everybody here at least one time the term durability or fatigue resistance.

Speaker 2:

But a part of the term used is just the ability to decrease as less as possible performance or physiological thresholds during prolonged exercise. So some studies show that muscle glycogen depletion so carbs inside the muscle, the level of carbs inside the muscle, is related to durability. So let's say that if you are able to preserve muscle glycogen, so carbs inside the muscle, it is likely that you have a better durability. So we all know that in 99% of the cases, we just burn carbs or fats during exercise. So if we are able to use more fats and less muscle glycogen, it is straightforward that we are saving muscle glycogen. So, at least theoretically, having an higher capacity to burn fats at the specific intensity of the race or of the training session, make sure that you are preserving muscle glycogen, to make sure that you are preserving muscle glycogen. And so this is the, let's say, the physiological mechanism behind focusing on improving fat max or fat oxidation, or fat oxidation in general.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and again, I think it's important to recognize that this is not a new concept. In a way, like I remember 30 years ago talking about preserving muscle glycogen, how important this is when it comes to performance. Typically you're you're racing high aerobically for two hours, then there's some sort of performance demand at the end in order to get on the podium, to win the race or get over that last hill. And if you have more glycogen in your muscles spared because you were burning fat at a higher rate during that previous two, three hours, whatever it is, you'll go faster and have higher performance, right?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah. I think that, especially for road cycling, is is crucial, this durability and the fat oxidation concept to to spare muscle glycogen. And I think that we also saw in the last years a lot of um, a lot of uh I don't know what is the english term, but bonking something like this in the most important races, also at tour de france and all these kind of races, when a rider, at a certain point of the race, uh, just uh, completely hit the wall. Uh, we cannot be sure, but it is very likely that is linked to uh, is linked to carbs unavailability and so to muscle glycogen depletion.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so we've already talked about how that exact percentage is not the same in everybody for fat max. So everybody's fat max is not at 60% or 70% or 80%. It can change depending on who you are, your trainability, um, and many other factors. You mentioned about peak fat oxidation having a gram per minute sort of rate. Could you explain that rate of burn for fat burning, and does gender play a role? How does training play a role and what are some of the observations that you saw in the research?

Speaker 2:

I spent the last year of my PhD at Auckland University of Technology in New Zealand and my supervisor there was Dr Ed Maunder. That performed a lot of research about this kind of thing and also a very good review paper that in scientific journals is just a big resume of all that has been done about the topic. And Dr Ed Maunder topic was pig fat oxidation and this kind of thing. So for what concerns training level and gender and peak fat oxidation, we can see as higher the training level, higher peak fat oxidation. So untrained people have a lower peak fat oxidation compared to trained people and high-level trained people higher compared to just recreational, recreationally trained people.

Speaker 2:

And the other thing is that if we look at the absolute amount of grams of fat used, male have a higher peak fat oxidation compared to female. But if we look at, if we normalize these grams of fats for muscle mass so not all the body mass, but just for muscle mass female is higher than male. So it is reversed the relationship between sex and big fat oxidation. And I think it is interesting. And some research show that maybe female can have a higher peak fat oxidation because of their hormones. So for example, I don't know how the how is the English pronunciation? But estrogen right, yeah exactly stimulates lipolysis.

Speaker 2:

So fat oxidation and, of course, estrogen levels are higher in women compared to men.

Speaker 1:

So this is a thing and so what would be the training implication then for our female listeners listening to this when they're talking, when they are like okay, should I change my zone 2 training strategy like what's your recommendation there?

Speaker 2:

I don't think that there is something like a completely different approach to focus on on fat oxidation in female compared to male, but just measure your fat max or approximate your fat max. After that, you know it. Just try to accumulate as much as possible volume at this intensity. So basically, base training, long rides and also staying maybe sometimes with low carb, because if you ingest carb before or during your training you are lowering both peak fat oxidation and fat max. So also the combination between nutrition and training uh, intensity and duration could be a a thing to keep in mind yeah, let's, let's talk about that in in about one or two minutes.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, but I think the recommendation there is like okay, we, we know that the research you know may suggest once you normalize which, uh, normalize for lean body mass, like you talked about, that's, that's not as much of a thing in the research as much as the gram per minute. So I think where this needs to evolve for male and female implications is to normalize it to lean body mass for sure, and I think we might deduce some more information about it. But I think your original statement of, hey, if you really want to know these rates of your PFO and the percentage at F max, like go to a lab, get tested. If not, stay within that kind of zone, two parameter, if anything, maybe the females air a little bit on the higher, know, higher side. Males can go right in the middle, maybe lower side, that kind of thing yeah, yeah, it makes sense, it makes sense, uh.

Speaker 2:

But the other thing I think that it is important to say it is that there is not just a single piece of research that show that if you train at fat max you improve your big fat oxidation. So, uh, basically, maybe in the in the in the next one year or two years, we will have this paper that show this principle that we are speaking about. But I think that there is some hidden information in some other papers about it because, for example, some studies show that training volume before the fourth threshold is correlated with improved durability, and so we know that FETmax is below the fourth threshold and so we can make this link, also without the official paper. And also I think that another good information about this principle so the link between low intensity training and improved durability and so likely FETmax is that, for example, in studies about tapering.

Speaker 2:

So let's say that a group of cyclists was training high volume and high intensity until a certain point, and then they dropped the volume but keep the intensity. So this was the study design, and they show that after dropping the volume so low intensity, training volume and keeping the intensity after that they kept their performance. In short efforts like, let's say, 20 minutes maximum power output, but they decreased the same performance after a long ride. So let's say they are the same 20 minute maximal power outputs after. I can't remember exactly the protocol of the study, but was two hours or three hours or so. So we don't have the official paper that link this training principle to to fat max, but we can see this information hidden around in other papers about other topics.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and even at the highest level. I think that just speaks to the specificity of training and recognizing that. You know, as coaches or physiologists, there's we're just turning, you know, turning knobs and flipping switches of what we want more of or less of uh for the given adaptation, or the result, or the uh what's needed in the race. You know in that regard. Um, one last thing that you talked about if you said staying, you know, low carb, going into a training session, something like that, because it it it does influence how your body uh uses substrates, uh or energy, right Uh, during a training session, you said stay low carb, do you mean consuming carbohydrate just before the session or staying like low carb in your lifestyle?

Speaker 2:

Uh, yeah, that's definitely a very interesting question and also, uh, I recommend also to the listeners to um to to have a visit to um. The name is Jeff Rockschild is a nutritionist that was also at the University of Technology during my PhD and he published a lot of things about these kind of things. So, to answer your questions, so both general diet so diet in the week before, in the two weeks before and even in three days before the training sessions influence substrate that you use during the training session, and also short term diet, so one hour before and also during, so all the diet influence the substrate that you are using during your training sessions, and it's it is easy to understand the principle because it's specific. So if you are eating more carbs, you are using more carbs during your training session. You are. If you are eating more fats, you are using more fats during your training sessions. So this is something that has been shown in something like 10, 20 papers and is very understood within the sports science community.

Speaker 1:

And so, for our listeners, my suggestion is keep it simple. When you're in your base training period, intensity is lower and you're training more. In the zone two, you'll decrease your carbohydrate because you don't need it as much. What you're training is your metabolism, your kind of metabolic efficiency, and so eat more fat and protein, decrease carbohydrate. As you get into your build phases and your race phases, you're going to need more carbohydrate on board in order to have the performance that you want. Therefore, you'll start to shift your carbohydrate intake that goes in line with the shift of intensity. So high intensity, high carbohydrate. Lower intensity, lower carbohydrate intake. And I think if you follow that general principle, you'll find a lot of success in getting the performance that you want in an ideal body composition, as well as having the highest peak fat oxidation rates when you ride your bike. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

That's what you just explained is the latest trend is for science, I think it is called something like fuel for the work required. So if you are just training at low intensity for long duration, maybe you can focus on improving your fat max with some carbs restrictions, while in the latest part of the season so let's say competition period or pre-competition period maybe your intensity is higher. So you need carbs to perform that intensity work and you don't want to to be in in carbs deficit, because it has also been shown that can can lead to overreaching and all these kind of symptoms that uh um, impair performance during training and racing and so, uh, your training is compromised if you are in carbs deficit when you are doing high intensity work, especially if combined with high volume what's what's so fun about this, gabriella, is it's like there's a lot of new research out this and we're finding kind of more things, like you said, like secrets, nested in the same time.

Speaker 1:

Like 15 years ago or so, we that concept we just called it macro nutrient cycling, like you know, shifting the carbs, proteins and fats in order to align with performance demand. So it's like a lot of these things. We knew it's a thing and now we're understanding why it's a thing yeah, that's what's super fun, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that also all these latest research about fat max, big fat oxidation, durability, as you said, it's just uh, giving new terms to something that we all know from 15 years, 20 years, 30 years and also giving new terms can make understand this better and maybe bring to new research to understand new training approaches and new nutrition strategies yeah, you know, in our grandmasters you, you know, 65 plus or something like that they're probably like.

Speaker 1:

I knew that 50 years ago you know that kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

So I guess here's here's the most important question, Gabriella, knowing all of this, for our listeners who are only training six to eight hours a week, or maybe eight to 10 hours a week, what do they do with this information? If, if, if a lot of the suggestion out there is okay, zone two training can do all these things, but you have to do a lot of it. What? What is your answer to those who can't maybe do a lot of it on a regular basis?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I think that, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's not, it's more difficult, but it's not different. The principle. So just everything that we we said before, but just trying to apply to to your own schedule. So let's say that, for example, uh, of course you cannot do maybe during the week from Monday to Friday, you cannot do every day for hours in zone two, so accumulating as much as possible time at fat max and big fat oxidation. But, for example, you can try to, for example, do something like fasted training, so no carbs before a short session during the week.

Speaker 2:

So let's say that you have one hour before going to work from Monday to Friday and you can just do a, let's say, a zone two, predominantly zone two, workout without breakfast before. So this is likely to increase fat oxidation during the workout. And the other thing is that, of course, during the weekend, if you have time, so if you work from Monday to Friday, don't do, for example, it's obvious, but don't do a one-hour high-intensity session on Saturday, but exploit it to accumulate as much as possible work at the low intensity. So I think these are the the two uh, the two easy to use principles. So some, uh, with no carbs, training during the week and long session. Exploit the the time during the weekend to do long session in zone two, so below the first threshold I definitely agree with that and that goes in line with every.

Speaker 1:

You know a lot of my messaging on the podcast. It's like for us time crunched folk like get the intensity done midweek, go as long as you can on the weekend, that's, that's really ideal. But I think if we go back to, if somebody really wants to kind of maximize that metabolic training, it is probably watch the, the carbohydrate intake going into a training session, especially if it's lower intensity, in order to just help make that shift. I would say the thing that is different is when you're in that kind of like, you know, build and prep and going into a race period, I wouldn't constrict carbohydrates midweek or on the weekend, because you need those carbohydrates for high intensity midweek and on weekend.

Speaker 1:

However, you know, in probably four to six months out of the year, maybe when you're just like well four months out of the year, when you're a little bit lower intensity, you can start to play around with manipulating or cycling the macronutrient of carbohydrate to do that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I think you can do it, but the micro cycle, as you, as you said, and also in the micro, in the micro cycle during the week. So, for example, just uh a reduction in carbs just before the low intensity session, also during the week, but not uh everyday restricting carbs because you need it for higher intensity sessions yeah, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1:

So I guess you know some practical takeaways here. As we wrap it up, is you know, fat or really Zone 2,? If there is a secret there, it's in the metabolic effect that allows your body to burn more fat as fuel and therefore preserving carbohydrates so that you're more durable later on in the game or in the race. So getting tested in a, getting tested in laboratory setting, is really the gold standard in terms of identifying fat max. And but you know, as we talked about the kind of the mid-end or the middle level of zone two for most amateur masters riders is probably going to hit that fat back. Would you agree with that, dr gallo?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I think that this is a very good practical takeaway, but I think that, yeah, the the main focus is metabolic, so just fats and so just on zone 2 to increase peak fat oxidation and fat oxidation.

Speaker 2:

But I think we, we, we also have to remember that there are also other benefits of zone 2 training. So it's not only about metabolism, but of course, you are training also your mitochondria, you are training your capillaries, you are training your stroke volume, you are training your hemoglobin. So, because I think that the peculiarity of cycling, compared to other endurance sports, like running, is that you can do a lot of low intensity training volume compared, for example, uh to running or uh rowing, because the, the muscle are, and and the muscle are low, then the load on the joints is much lower, so it is easier to stimulate through high intensity volume also mitochondria and all the cardiovascular system. So, yes, it is a lot about fat oxidation and durability, maybe, but we also have to remember that we are also stimulating all the other systems, like like muscle, mitochondria and cardiovascular system yeah, that's, that's a good reminder.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I intend that we go like deep, you know deep on a topic like this.

Speaker 1:

It's, it's, it's you know it's.

Speaker 1:

It's easy to like put the blinders on and um, and so bringing that to light is you're kind of you're training or influencing all of the aspects all the time. But I think to that part final, a final takeaway might be to um, because we're training all of the aspects all at the time. But I think to that part final, a final takeaway might be to um, because we're training all of that all the time. If you're doing intensity midweek, as you said before, maybe forego the group ride a little bit more often on the weekend in order to keep the intensity low so that you can train all of those aspects and kind of keep to that zone two, zone or zone three a little bit, but just like that long ride adaptation. That will do all the things that Dr Gallo just described, instead of blasting yourself with yet again another group ride or an interval session. It's like, if you got the time, do it on the weekend, go a little bit long, keep the intensity a little lower, especially if you got the intensity midweek.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I completely agree and I think sometimes it it is hard to stick with this approach because you can, you want to, uh, to race against your teammates in the weekend, but uh, I think, from a physiological point of view, is the um is the approach, that is more, that is that, uh, it makes sense.

Speaker 1:

I agree. Or just group ride on Saturday, long ride on Sunday and then rest a couple of days. So, yeah, all right. Well, in closing, dr Geller, it was a pleasure talking with you today. Thank you for taking time to share your knowledge with us, really appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you, thank you. Thank you, adam, it was my pleasure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and thanks to our listeners for all of their questions and their pursuit of knowledge in their training journeys. So if you want to learn more knowledge from Dr Gabriella Gallo, go find his Instagram account it's at knowledge as what and be sure to come back next week when I get to pick his brain a little bit more about fatigue resistance, FTP and VO2 max. Thanks for joining us on the Time Crunch Cyclist podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. If you want even more actionable training advice, head over to trainrightcom backslash newsletter and subscribe to our free weekly publication. Each week you'll get in-depth training content that goes beyond what we cover here on the podcast. That'll help you take your training to the next level. That's all for now. Until next time, train hard, train smart, train right.

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